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'''Question''': In popular belief & worship songs, it is not uncommon to find the idea that all we need is God. Cloud & Townsend, however, basically argue that God is not enough, we need people too. Do you agree with their view? Why or why not? (Be sure to do more research into the issue. If the group cannot come to a consensus, feel free to have different group members each express their own opinions.)
'''Question''': In popular belief & worship songs, it is not uncommon to find the idea that all we need is God. Cloud & Townsend, however, basically argue that God is not enough, we need people too. Do you agree with their view? Why or why not? (Be sure to do more research into the issue. If the group cannot come to a consensus, feel free to have different group members each express their own opinions.)


''Arthur Ridder's contribution'':
Balancing Relationships
I. Introduce:  


From the book how people grow:
a. Elements/Characteristics of this world
 
p. 31 “Independence is not an option for us. God existed without us, not vice versa.”
i. Love, joy, happiness
         
 
            “We also need other people and cannot live independently from them either. The results of trying to live apart from our need fro other is disastrous and never works. We must depend on the outside for love.”
ii. Decisions, trials, tribulations
   
 
p. 49 “But gradually they came to understand that the Body of Christ is a big part of the delivery system of healing and growth hat God has in store for His people.
iii. Wars, hate, sadness
 
p. 50 “The Body of Christ is a ‘give and receive entity.”
b. Options of living in/dealing with this life
 
Ch. 7  Gods’ plan A. God used people to help heal him of depression. But through those people is how God did His work.
i. Total Independence
 
ii. Relations with people
Scripture: (talks about the Body of Christ-Church-Human relationships)
 
iii. Relations with God
Gen. 2:18 “It is not good for man to be alone.”
 
iv. Balancing relations of people and God
Gen 2:24 “For this cause shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife
 
c. (Thesis) The Bible is how we can tell what relationships are needed and how to balance
James 5:16 “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
the relationships between God and man and also man and man.
   
 
1 Peter 4:10 “Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God’s grace in its various forms.
II. (bi.)  Total Independence:
   
 
http://www.lepp.cornell.edu
a. Very few people are totally independent. Examples in life of total independents:
 
”God ordained family as the foundation for all of society”
i. P.O.W.s (explain)
            Gods plan A
 
            The Body of Christ
ii. Abused children (explain)
 
“Because the image of God exists in human kind the relationships we form with each other are to be on a much higher level than any other kingdom. Words such as love, truth, and justice are possible in their fullness only with other humans or God.”
iii. Shipwrecked (explain)
 
“God did not call all creation "very good" (Gen. 1:31) until after the formation of woman (Gen. 1:27).
b. Cain was forced to wander as a severe punishment
   
 
Conclude- God made us in his image, God says relationships are good, according to the new testament, the Body of Christ (church) is still around today. How could we baptize people without a relationship with them?
III. (bii – biii) The Extremes of Dependence:
 
a. Dependence on/relations with people. (bii.)
Other sides of the argument (more research needed)
 
i. Since the beginning – tribes of people formed and made life easier:
Prophets
 
            There were some who didn’t have many if any relationships
1. Hunting/gathering; defense/survival; protection from weather; each person does own work to help accomplish overall tasks for simpler life.
Gods’ perfectness
 
            Why do we need others, God is good enough.
ii. Ecclesiastes 4:9-12 – life is just all around easier with two or more people.  
The fall of Adam
 
            He walked with God, and wouldn’t need them, for He would have walked with us.
iii. Jane Elliot – third grade class project (explain)
 
1. Even the children understood and grouped together out of necessity
 
iv. Reinstate/paraphrase Ecclesiastes 4:9-12
 
b. Dependence on/ relations with only God. (biii.)
 
i. Monastic movement
 
1. Monks led a life of solitude to grow and stay away from the world
 
ii. Prophets
 
1. Didn’t have many relations except with God
 
iii. If you have nobody and with relation with God because nobody else is around:
 
1. John 14:18 – He won’t leave you alone. He will come.
 
2. Isaiah 41:10 – He will strengthen you and help you.
 
3. Romans 8:35-39 (Deuteronomy 31:6) – Nothing can come between your relation with God.
 
4. The above support the monastic movement and the prophets
 
iv. Conclusion: monks realized that God was the more important of relations, for God was
before we were (Genesis 1:1), not the other way around. They also applied this to other
relationships…that if it wasn’t God, it wasn’t near important.
 
IV. (biv.) Balancing  Dependence:
 
a. Monastic Movement:
 
i. The monks were having psychological problems…
 
ii. Pachomius grouped monks under a common rule to give them some fellowship
 
1. Helped when they wandered about preaching to pagans (gave social skills)
 
2. They soon set up monasteries
 
3. Aided to reforms in the church
 
4. All proves group work was helpful
 
b. Learning from the monastic movement:
 
i. If alone – God will come – but He will help in growth
 
1. That aid in growth comes from God and other people
 
2. Just like monks, we must:
 
a. Life for God, build that relationship and focus on that first and foremost of all things in our lives.
 
b. Then we build relations with people – leaning on each other…being dependant on other people’s love. (lyrics to “Lean on Me”)
 
c. The Body (Church):
 
i. With the relation with others – we are able to build each other up in Christ (Galatians
6:1 – build your brothers up if he falls, for [Genesis 2:18] it is not good for man to be alone). We wouldn’t be able to build each other up.
 
ii. I Corinthians 12: We all have differing gifts (apostles, prophets, teachers, miracle workers, healers, comforters, speakers of tongues)
 
1. The parts should depend on each other to work as the Body of Christ.
 
a. Creates efficient spiritual growth in every part.
 
2. No part is greater than the other – if one suffers, they all suffer.
 
a. Each part, like ancient tribes, share burdens, and tackle the greatest burden: freeing others from Satan’s lies and building up the Body more.
 
d. All of these groups (from monks to church groups) are formed and work because God is the first and foremost purpose; relationships with others are only there to make that living more effective (but not to replace God’s relationship)
 
V. Conclusion of whole paper…

Revision as of 05:24, 26 September 2007

Topic 9: God is not enough, need people too?

Question: In popular belief & worship songs, it is not uncommon to find the idea that all we need is God. Cloud & Townsend, however, basically argue that God is not enough, we need people too. Do you agree with their view? Why or why not? (Be sure to do more research into the issue. If the group cannot come to a consensus, feel free to have different group members each express their own opinions.)

Balancing Relationships I. Introduce:

a. Elements/Characteristics of this world

i. Love, joy, happiness

ii. Decisions, trials, tribulations

iii. Wars, hate, sadness

b. Options of living in/dealing with this life

i. Total Independence

ii. Relations with people

iii. Relations with God

iv. Balancing relations of people and God

c. (Thesis) The Bible is how we can tell what relationships are needed and how to balance the relationships between God and man and also man and man.

II. (bi.) Total Independence:

a. Very few people are totally independent. Examples in life of total independents:

i. P.O.W.s (explain)

ii. Abused children (explain)

iii. Shipwrecked (explain)

b. Cain was forced to wander as a severe punishment

III. (bii – biii) The Extremes of Dependence:

a. Dependence on/relations with people. (bii.)

i. Since the beginning – tribes of people formed and made life easier:

1. Hunting/gathering; defense/survival; protection from weather; each person does own work to help accomplish overall tasks for simpler life.

ii. Ecclesiastes 4:9-12 – life is just all around easier with two or more people.

iii. Jane Elliot – third grade class project (explain)

1. Even the children understood and grouped together out of necessity

iv. Reinstate/paraphrase Ecclesiastes 4:9-12

b. Dependence on/ relations with only God. (biii.)

i. Monastic movement

1. Monks led a life of solitude to grow and stay away from the world

ii. Prophets

1. Didn’t have many relations except with God

iii. If you have nobody and with relation with God because nobody else is around:

1. John 14:18 – He won’t leave you alone. He will come.

2. Isaiah 41:10 – He will strengthen you and help you.

3. Romans 8:35-39 (Deuteronomy 31:6) – Nothing can come between your relation with God.

4. The above support the monastic movement and the prophets

iv. Conclusion: monks realized that God was the more important of relations, for God was before we were (Genesis 1:1), not the other way around. They also applied this to other relationships…that if it wasn’t God, it wasn’t near important.

IV. (biv.) Balancing Dependence:

a. Monastic Movement:

i. The monks were having psychological problems…

ii. Pachomius grouped monks under a common rule to give them some fellowship

1. Helped when they wandered about preaching to pagans (gave social skills)

2. They soon set up monasteries

3. Aided to reforms in the church

4. All proves group work was helpful

b. Learning from the monastic movement:

i. If alone – God will come – but He will help in growth

1. That aid in growth comes from God and other people

2. Just like monks, we must:

a. Life for God, build that relationship and focus on that first and foremost of all things in our lives.

b. Then we build relations with people – leaning on each other…being dependant on other people’s love. (lyrics to “Lean on Me”)

c. The Body (Church):

i. With the relation with others – we are able to build each other up in Christ (Galatians 6:1 – build your brothers up if he falls, for [Genesis 2:18] it is not good for man to be alone). We wouldn’t be able to build each other up.

ii. I Corinthians 12: We all have differing gifts (apostles, prophets, teachers, miracle workers, healers, comforters, speakers of tongues)

1. The parts should depend on each other to work as the Body of Christ.

a. Creates efficient spiritual growth in every part.

2. No part is greater than the other – if one suffers, they all suffer.

a. Each part, like ancient tribes, share burdens, and tackle the greatest burden: freeing others from Satan’s lies and building up the Body more.

d. All of these groups (from monks to church groups) are formed and work because God is the first and foremost purpose; relationships with others are only there to make that living more effective (but not to replace God’s relationship)

V. Conclusion of whole paper…

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